Interview with Formerly Incarcerated Men about Dr. Shakur’s Impact

The following is an interview conducted on December 18, 2021, with men who were prisoners with Dr. Mutulu Shakur in the federal prison system. The interviewees are Ras Jay Jondi Harrell, Leo Sullivan (aka Osiris), and Gus Lines (aka Lucky). They have all completed their sentences and are engaging in socially conscious activities in their respective communities. The interview is conducted by Mshairi Siyanda, an educator, community activist/organizer, revolutionary artist, and member of the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement. Sister Siyanda (referred to as the Interviewer) met these men and Dr. Mutulu Shakur when she participated in a prison education and cultural program when she was a student in the Department of African American Studies at Georgia State University in Atlanta. Harrell, Sullivan, and Lines were also participants in the Prison Education program sponsored by the Department and organized by Professor Akinyele Umoja

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Interviewer: Hello, Brothers – it’s beautiful to see you all here. Let’s get this interview process started because it seems like you all are already like at a family reunion … I’m going to ask some questions, and I would like to hear from each of you. Thank you all once again. Would you please tell us your name, where you’re from, and just for fun, if freedom was a food, what would that food be. Just for fun and we’re just going to do this really briefly. For me, my name is Mshairi. I am from Atlanta. If freedom was a food, it would be hot wings because I’m from Atlanta and I love hot wings. We can go in the order that I see, Brother Osiris, your name, where you’re from, if freedom was a food, what would it be?

Osiris: My government name is Leo Sullivan. I was born in Chicago. If freedom was a food, it would probably be lobster. That’s a delicacy that I enjoy eating, lobster.

Interviewer: As you should, as you should. All right, Brother Lucky, your name, where you’re from, and if freedom was a food what would it be?

Lucky: Okay. My government name is Cedric Lines, the (inaudible) call me Lucky, really blessed like Akinyele said Akin Ire, (“blessed warrior”). If freedom was a food it would be, I’m going to throw something in there for Akinyele with the barbecue chicken, macaroni and cheese. I’m from the South. I’m deep down. I’m in Miami, so you can’t get no deeper than that, it’s bottom. I’m from the South. I’m going to go with macaroni and cheese if freedom was a food.

Ras J: My name is J. Jondhi Harrell. My African name, which was given me to me by Dr. Akinyele (Umoja), is Kwame Tata Nganga Mbangala which Kwame means born on Saturday, Tata Nganga is the father healer, and Mbangala means the wanderer in the wilderness, which was appropriate because we were wandering in the wilderness not just here in North America but in the prison system. If freedom was a food for me, it would be a mango because it’s sweet, it’s juicy, it’s exotic, and it’s natural.

Interviewer: First question, how did you meet Dr. Shakur?

Lucky: I’ll start. I met Doc when I first came to Atlanta Penitentiary (United States Penitentiary Atlanta). He was already anticipating my arrival before I even came due to the Brother Akbar Pray, which is a very close comrade of ours. Akbar sent Mutulu the word that I would be coming. As soon as I touched that, that’s what exactly happened. When I finally got there, the very next day I went to the laundry – that’s where Doc (Dr. Mutulu Shakur) was working then. I wouldn’t say work because he made it like his headquarters. That was the headquarters. (laughter) Osiris (aka Leo Sullivan) can be witness to that. A law firm/gym.

Osiris: An office. (laughter)

Lucky: Office. So, when I went in there that morning because you go there to get your clothes, your boots, and so forth, so, when I went there that morning, early that morning, it’s like as soon as I entered, we locked eyes. It was like I went straight to him, and we embraced, that camaraderie hug, that love, it was firm. He looked me straight in the eyes and was like – I didn’t even mention Akbar at the time or who I was, but it’s like he already knew. And he said, “Later on I’m going to give you the ABCs, Brother.” Which is the politics of the institution. We departed, later on we got together, and he put it down. He gave me the ins and outs and after that, man, it was on from there. That’s how I met Mutulu.

Interviewer: Beautiful. Was that your first time meeting him and hearing – or had you heard about him before then?

Lucky: Yeah, I definitely heard about him, read about him, and knew the brother was serious in the struggle. But that was my first time meeting him physically in physical form, that was the very first time. But like I said, it’s like we had been knowing each other for years when we embraced.

Osiris: My experience is a little bit different, same circumstances, but different. I could visualize it vividly today like it happened yesterday and this was the year 1997, I want to say. Mutulu walked into the cafeteria (at U.S.P. Atlanta), he wore an Army jacket on, his dreads cascaded down his back. Everything about him was demagog. There was mere fascination with this brother because he had such a light that the conscious gravitate to it and the cowardly fear it and they’re intimidated by him because of what he brings. It’s justice, equality, and love for mankind. But what makes my experience so different because I didn’t know – what Lucky didn’t say, Lucky’s like we be locked down or something, but where me and Lucky were locked up in J2, was one of the most dangerous prisons in America.

It was a bloodbath there while we were there. So, when he came in, he came in under circumstances that were so adverse that we all had animalistic, bestial mentalities of survival.

Everybody’s strapped – we’re in a system where the white man who runs the system has set it up for us to kill each other. That was the mentality. Then the opposite of that was run by the “rats”, which was snitches who really set a lot of traps and did a lot of diabolical things. It was this – it made our infrastructure even worse because we had no organization, we had no skills, for the most part, to show us our true essence. Mutulu, when he came in, the one thing that he did was he employed in us the essence of our true selves and how to conduct ourselves, but not just that, showed us the pitfalls that were hurting us as young Black men in America. Do you know what I’m saying? And one of the things that was great, Mutulu was my introduction to Dr. Akinyele (Umoja). He was the one who helped me, helped a lot of us brothers, because what he did was when he structured us, he brought an academic, he brought the whole Georgia State, he brought a lot of conscious minds. At that particular time, I was locked up because I was considered a habitual violent offender. Of course, they gave me almost 30 years in prison. Had it not been for Mutulu, I would never have had the understanding to stop looking at my own people to be exploited and looking at my people – he taught me and taught us a different perspective on life, our heritage, our consciousness, and most important love for self. When I got out of prison, I was able to be very, very successful as a businessman, but had I not met Mutulu and others during this journey, I’d have been dead, I’d have perished in prison. I would (have) never got out. Like I said before, and the brothers can attest to it, it was a very, very – it was a bloodbath. The environment was a bloodbath. We were locked up like animals in cages. In all our minds we knew 100%, 100%, we were either going to kill somebody or we were going to be killed.

That was the mentality there. I attest to this by him and Dr. Akinyele, and brothers coming into the – they call it a penitentiary but it was really a plantation, those brothers coming in and touching the masses of us, and getting us to open our third eye, and giving us the tools that we needed to succeed. It was so helpful that when I think about Doc it makes me want to cry. I get emotional. Because to see him languish in prison 37 years, and all his comrades, all his peers to be released, and the justice system even admits to a certain degree they were wrong, but you still don’t let this man go. We don’t know how much time he got left. He’s done everything he could do possibly to be liberated and to be freed. He’s been a role model prisoner no matter how much they try to castigate him or subjugate him to some person he’s not, because the records dictate. You have hundreds of brothers, if not thousands of brothers like me, who can attest had it not been for him, I probably would still be in prison, or I’d be an enemy to society. I can’t convey enough his importance, his contributions, what he did, and what he’s capable to do, and what he’s doing now for us and our struggle as a people.

Ras J: My experience was a little different. I met Doc in Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary (in Pennsylvania). I got there in 1993. We were actually in a midst of a war with the Aryan Brotherhood, who is a white racist skinhead group, and the entry into their organization is to kill a brother. You can imagine what the atmosphere of the prison was like. We always tried to travel with a comrade because their particular thing was catching a brother off by themselves so they can murder him. I remember one time the guards found a brother, they thought he was asleep in his bunk, and the Aryan Brotherhood had actually caught him in the shower, murdered him, carried him back to his cell, put him in his bed, and they didn’t find him til the next day. That was the atmosphere we were living in. Doc was like a – I will say that in a chaotic circumstance, a brother who is an oasis of serenity, light, and knowledge, attracts people to him, and that definitely was Doc. We became acquainted because Doc worked in the law library at Lewisburg and I worked in the regular library. I had got a job teaching GED. We became acquainted but we really didn’t become comrades, I mean real comrades, until we both got to Atlanta. When I was in Lewisburg some brothers got together and planned a work strike against the crack (cocaine) law because at that time if you had crack you were getting sentences 100 times greater than if we sold cocaine (powder), and we saw that as an offense against Black and Brown people, because there were so many young brothers who were there that had crack cases. We started the work strike, and it was a nationwide work strike. I was identified as one of the leaders in the strike, so I was put in the hole for a year, and at the end of that year, I was transferred to USP Atlanta. Then, a few months later, I was in the hallway walking down toward the cafeteria and I saw Doc come through the metal detector with his stuff from R&D (Receiving & Discharge). So, it was a great reunion. From that point on, we really began to vibe. I like to call the group that we established in Atlanta a circle of consciousness. And Doc was the center of that circle. Then he brought in brothers like Dr. Akinyele and so many brothers and sisters from the Atlanta community, teachers, professors, community activists, who were not only active at Georgia State University, but we became acquainted with folks from WRFG (an FM radio station) and we were able to actually call into the station and do commentary, spoken word, interact with the Atlanta community, and that was all due to the level of respect that Doc commanded not only in Atlanta but across the country. When AK (Akinyele Umoja) was talking a little earlier about building links between the various street gangs or sets, Doc was instrumental with that. One of the things he did, which infuriated the authorities, and eventually led to us being transferred from Atlanta, is as Osiris said, snitches were one of the banes of our existence, not just because they would inform upon us while we’re doing our activities in the prison, but so many people who were incarcerated were incarcerated because the Feds have this practice of turning one brother against the next, giving out so much time, and then they’ll give you a choice either do this time or then they’ll offer you a deal where you might do far less time. I was sentenced to 20 years of which I did 18, but they came in with the offer of five years. And actually, did it through my then girlfriend which caused us to break up because to me, if you would bring me an offer from the FBI, then you don’t really know who I am as a person, and we can no longer have a relationship. But what Doc did is he organized, and he talked to the various OGs of all the sets and we were no longer murdering each other or injuring each other because Doc had created peace treaties. If there was a conflict between prisoners of individual sets … they would quell beefs, so we were no longer fighting with each other, we were united in our defense in ourselves.

Interviewer: I would really like to know, some of you already spoke about it, but more in depth if you could let me know what role Dr. Shakur played in bringing unity on the inside during your incarceration.

Lucky: Them brothers did a great job, Brother Ras J and Osiris, about painting a picture for us how the institution was back then and still is as we speak and the role Mutulu played. I want to say this, when we got to Coleman Penitentiary. Because they moved all of us in 2005 from Atlanta Penitentiary because they made it a medium (security prison) and moved us out to Coleman . I was on the first bus, and it took Doc a few buses before he came. When we entered that penitentiary, we were the first federal inmates, or whatever you want to call it, come into that prison. But when we got there, there was some brothers there from New Orleans, the Katrina evacuees that were in prison in the county jails at that time. They had them on the compound. When we entered the prison and they had us separated, the brothers from New Orleans couldn’t mingle with the brothers from the . The style there kind of created an illusion that we were beefing with them, that they couldn’t let us on the pound (compound) because there’s going to be something. They finally let the brothers out and when the brothers came out, there was tension, there was a lot of tension. And me being a student of Dr. Mutulu Shakur and Brother Akinyele (Umoja), because I learned so much from the brothers and how to bring peace, how to deal with our brothers, and know that the enemy at hand do, like the Brother Ras J said, divide and conquer. That’s one of the things that they taught. Like they say the COINTELPRO is called the “NOWTELPRO” because it still exists. We told the brothers no, man, it’s love with us. We feel their pain because be mindful, that was the Katrina storm that had happened. And we’re like nah, we feel you all, we feel you all’s pain, we’re brothers. After that Mutulu finally arrived but it was still – the penitentiary had got packed and Mutulu talked to the brothers and showed them love, and they eventually left the compound. But there had been stabbings and so forth, I’m talking about every other day there was a stabbing or a vicious fight. Mutulu came with the attention like he always do, to bring peace to the compound. Like the brothers say, you get with the heads because you’ve got the Crips, you got the Bloods, you’ve got the GDs, you got “homeboyism,” you’ve got different sets. So, the brother came and got with all the so-called head cards or what you would call them and brought everybody together. And we were blessed to have a warden who pretty much tried to implement some programs to bring peace. Me, and Mutulu, and some other brothers got with them and talked to him to bring some various programs like Dr. Akinyele and so forth, and we implemented it, we put it into existence. Man, you talking about something so beautiful, I’m talking about the stabbings and the fights went to damn near zero, excuse my language. I’m talking about it was so peaceful. I’m talking about on a penitentiary compound where you seen stabbings and just bloody all-out war, with all the different cliques and calls. Brother Akinyele and them came and brought brothers from various different other locations, colleges and so forth, and we developed a class called Diversity Class. It consisted of different diverse backgrounds. The first thing we learned was the to think global and not geographical because that’s the number one thing that he told us and that we saw that was detrimental to our mind and to whole being. That’s a lot of reasons why a lot of violence is running rampant throughout the prisons because the geographical mindsets. That’s one of the things that we learned in class to not think geographical, to think global. Mutulu Shakur, he brought that type of energy and that type of vibe to that compound. I want to say this, that’s when I really seen that the system is really designed to keep us at odds, to keep us separated, to keep the violence going. Because the power that be, meaning beyond the warden, cause like I say, we had a pretty much fair warden that was kind of for letting us bring peace to this compound, so at that time I really seen it for what it was how the system really operates with not trying to bring the solution and real rehabilitation to not just a compound, throughout the BOP. Like I said, the power that be had animosity toward that. They seen this man come on the compound that was once violence, that was once bloodshed on a daily basis, and change it into barely a fistfight. With that said, the brother – I don’t know if you know the story, you probably can look it up, the brother – they came in and shut everything down. And Brother Mutulu went to for no reason at all. I’m talking about I think this part of trying to crush his spirit, trying to crush the positive movement that was going on throughout the prison. Because as you know, Tupac came to Lompoc I wasn’t in at the time, but he been doing – that had been a pattern. Like Dr. Akinyele said, it’s in his genes, it’s in his DNA to bring peace, he loved his people, not just – in all walks of life, he just loved to bring unity. Like I said, that’s when I really seen that it was designed, the system was designed to keep up the violence, to keep up the bloodshed because it wasn’t no legitimate reason for that brother to be snatched up. Because we had class at the time when they came and got him. He was teaching going out the door. When they came and got the brother, they locked me up, they locked various brothers up, and snatched him and took him to ADX for – be mindful, for bringing peace and unity to a compound. I just wanted to elaborate on that, put that out that the brother was innocent and the brother is about his people and about unity and love throughout the system.

Interviewer: I would like for Brother Osiris and Ras J to be able to answer that question too in addition to talking about some of the programs. And just a reminder, we’re asking what role did Dr. Shakur play in uniting people or bringing unity while you were incarcerated. Since he was such a strong leader and in situations like Brother Lucky just talked about, how he was snatched and sent somewhere else, I would also like to hear about how you all individually became leaders. If he touched you so much or if he played such an active role in your life so that you became leaders too, how did you express that leadership?

Osiris: I would like to say this. This is so profound and this is like I’m going on 60 now, so I’ve been on the planet for a minute. I’ve never, never in my entire life, encountered any man who had this much passion, this much power, this much spirituality in him, and it was so contagious and so pervasive that the closest thing I could compare him to – had I not listened to COINTELPRO and J Edgar Hoover say something that gave credence to it because once my mind was dead. But Mutulu exposed me to the science behind COINTELPRO and J Edgar Hoover saying something about we must incarcerate and imprison – to stop the next Black messiah or prophet. This is a white supremacist giving us acknowledgment that we didn’t even know existed. We never even looked at the man, but he obviously knew more about our history than we did. I’ll say this, so when Mutulu comes into the picture, and this brother is the most profound mastermind organizer that the world has ever known.

He’s so humble. But when I tell you if Mutulu had’ve been the average man his spirit would have been dead, he’d have been dead, he wouldn’t be breathing right now if it had not been for what dwells within his soul. I’ve seen Mutulu get locked up for jogging down the stairs. I’ve seen Mutulu get poisoned in the kitchen by Rats. I’ve seen Mutulu get locked up one time for having Zest soap in his locker. I don’t need to touch on that because these were the most racist white supremacist officers. Some of them even had tattoos of the spider. Remember that J (Jondhi Harrell)? That police, had a spider on his – he was a white supremacist.

Ras J: On his elbow.

Osiris: Right. But what’s so beautiful about this whole situation with this brother is the fact that he never came out of the hole, he never inspired us to look at a person by the race, creed, or color. Even though he was being massacred of spirit, he was being attacked constantly, he was being harassed day on and day out, just to see him being locked up for running down the stairs. Just to see him fighting food poisoning. We all eat at the table and somebody some kind of way they done poison the man’s food. That’s one of the things that I’m sure each one of us took from him and didn’t even know it. It affects us in such a powerful way that it helped us as men grow as men, as men sharpen steel, steel sharpens steel, he was the perfect example of that. Because when I left Mutulu, I went to another plantation, and I had all the tools necessary to do the culture and diversity, which is what he taught us, which is actually a guise to get the conscious brothers together so we can come together on the same vanguard so we can teach them how not to succumb to the prison mentality slavery and to be conscious of our plight so we can better our families and our loved ones that we can coexist in the world. For the most part, the majority of us were able to do that because of Mutulu. But again, I want to put a lot of emphasis on this, Mutulu, his greatest attribute, is a master organizer in terms of bringing people together in harmonistic tune with each other and showing them the pure assets of themselves and bettering themselves. I have never experienced nothing nowhere close to that. I experienced it with Mutulu, it was almost like taking us back in Africa to Egypt because everything we learned, every person that came up, we were seeing people who were the worst of the earth—junkies, drug addicts, gang bangers—now they’re talking affluent, they’re doing poetry, they’re reading books, they’re helping others, and the bodies, the killings even — like the brother said, like Lucky said, the killings have subsided so why would you want this man to languish in prison and perish unless it’s an attack on all of us? It’s not an attack just on Mutulu, it’s an attack on all of us. It’s an attack on our prophet. It’s an attack on a brother who brings something to us as a people in need and historically there’s always been a prophet or a demagog who comes amongst us to help the masses of people. Obviously, they know that. I just wanted to shed light on it. That’s what he did. As far as my career, he helped me write my first book. He showed me how to write a book. I was lucky the book went on to sell millions of copies of the book.

Interviewer: Are you looking?

Osiris: (laughs) That’s one of the books, yeah.

Interviewer: I don’t know if this is your first one but it’s one of them.

Osiris: That’s the old book. I did that a couple years ago. My first book – because he made me, he sat me down and was like, brother I need to get that book for you. And he told me books to read, Soul on Ice, and all these other books. Even though I was – even though all of us were – locked up on the plantation, our minds were always free to roam. We had so much literature, so many people coming in. You all beautiful sisters, queens coming in, educating us. We were looking at things from not just so much of a European perspective, but from an African holistic perspective, that we didn’t even know existed. The theme is peace not war because he came at a time when that was – we were a product of our environment. We’re going to survive by any means necessary and if that means I’m going to kill my brother because my brother is from DC and I’m from Florida, then so be it, because that’s all I know, and I’m not trying to die. It’s kill or be killed. For him to take that veil off of our eyes and show us our true heritage, our true selves, I couldn’t put enough emphasis on it. I was fortunate to be a student of his, all of us were fortunate to be that. We all prayed that at some juncture this will help benefit him, will liberate him. I do. I just want to say that. But I think that was his greatest attribute. Because when I left Mutulu, I went to another plantation, I was such a master organizer. Everything was just – it just came naturally, stuff that I didn’t know – even how to bring the brothers and sisters from the streets into the institution. Eventually they put me in the hole because they don’t like that. They don’t like us to come together and be conscious of self. In prison they put a bunch of televisions there and the televisions is a pacifier for a grown man. You should be a worse person when you leave there because that’s – neo-slavery is how their economics exist and if we don’t leave and come back then the whole thing doesn’t work. So, he countered that. As a matter of fact, when we first came to prison, you could get college degrees in prison. You know what I’m talking about? It was the greatest thing and so many brothers were taking advantage of it. Dudes were becoming doctors and stuff like that. Mutulu was a great advocate for that. I just want to say Mutulu was very instrumental in that. I’ve went on, I’ve had success with movies and books and stuff like that. The last couple years have been rough. I’ve experienced the COVID stuff in terms of how it affected the industry and stuff but for the most part I think I can attest, just like J can and Lucky can, had it not been for his presence we would still be probably in that way of life.

Interviewer: Thank you, Brother Osiris. Ras J, do you have anything to input with how Doc might have unified people while you were incarcerated?

Ras J: Lucky talked about the transfer of prisoners from USP Atlanta to USP Coleman. We didn’t really talk about the reason for that. Why does the federal prison system take the unprecedented step of turning a penitentiary into a medium facility? And I’m here to say that it was because of Dr. Mutulu Shakur. That’s a place where men can live and exist and there’s peace down there, they’re not killing each other, they’re working together, and that has to be laid at the feet of Mutulu because that’s who instituted it.

Lucky: Wasn’t nothing but knowledge coming inside the penitentiaries. Akinyele and them came with nothing but love and knowledge. Like Osiris and the brother and them say, especially what Ras J said, they’re like we’ve got to get them out of here. Just like they said Malcolm back in the day, that’s too much power for one man to have. Like Hoover say, we’ve got to get rid of the messiah. We’ve got to cut them off. So hot meaning rats. We had them that was being implemented inside the penitentiary to stop our movement, to stop the positiveness that Mutulu brought forward.

Ras J: Here’s the importance of that. Understand what he did. He changed the culture of prison life. In our last couple years in (U.S.P.) Atlanta, there were very few murders, the incidence of violence dropped down. Going back to what Lucky said about them lowering the level, our security level, all of us were high level. This was a max penitentiary. When has the feds ever changed the max penitentiary to a medium? What they did was they had to have a series of meetings. I’m surmising this, but this is what happened. They had a series of meetings and they said, we cannot lose control of the prison. USP Atlanta is actually being run by the prisoners, they’re dictating life, and Dr. Mutulu Shakur is at the heart of this. So how can we disrupt this? We’re going to transfer the majority of these prisoners to USP Coleman, which was a new federal facility –

Osiris: Plantation.

Ras J: USP Coleman had five plantations, medium, women’s, and two maximum. They transferred many of us to the new Coleman . He (Lucky) was on one of the first buses, Doc was on the middle bus, I was on the last buses because I was the head baker in USP and they transferred us last. But the transition of the prison, you have a brand-new prison, you have a chance to set a tone of what it’s going to be. And yes, it’s going to be violent at first, but under the influence of Doc, by the time I got there, Coleman looked like Atlanta. Doc had brokered a peace treaty and all Atlanta beefs stayed in Atlanta. It was the new – and the OGs were in place to enforce the peace and we had peace in Coleman. We had an amazing warden.

Ras J: Carlyle Holder. One of the best wardens I’ve even encountered. I’ve had contact with him even out on the street. He’s no longer a warden, but he’s working in reentry because he sincerely cared about us. He was the kind of warden that would cancel UNICOR cancel work, and have a series of meetings in the chapel and tell us stories about how we need to go back to our communities and influence young boys. Whoever seen a warden like that? A combination of a warden like that, and Doc, and our circle of consciousness, had a profound influence on the prison. The officials at the regional office, they had to be saying we shut down Atlanta because of this guy, now he’s down in Coleman not only doing the same thing, he has convinced the warden to institute his policies. They had to get Doc out of there. They made Warden Holder retire. It was all a part of a plan to disembowel the work that Doc was doing. What they weren’t realizing is when you scatter seeds of consciousness across the prison system, all you’re doing is transplanting these ideas to other prisons. I got transferred back up north to near Philadelphia, I was close to the end of my time. There I created a circle of consciousness just like we had in Atlanta and in Coleman and many brothers did the same. Wherever they sent us to, we put into practice what Doc had taught us. Their efforts against Doc was futile and that’s what has infuriated them and it’s one of the reasons that he’s still incarcerated. Because there’s still fighting against not just the work that he did prior to incarceration, but they are fighting against the strength, and the power, and the influencing that he had in every institution that he’s been in. I’ve talked to brothers who were in Lompoc, and other brothers other places before Doc came to where we knew him, and he’s been doing this since the first day he got to the feds. He even did it in max in Victorville. Doc is a force of nature that they haven’t been able to contain and it’s up to us who love, and honor, and respect him, to force the feds to release him so we can spend whatever time he has left on this planet with those who love and honor and care for him.

Interviewer: Thank you so much for that, Ras J. It’s so deeply profound and powerful to hear all of your accounts of the work that Doc is doing inside and the leaders that he ushered in, like you all, to be able to continue the work. We talked about a few programs, what do you call it? The conscious?

Ras J: Circle of Consciousness.

Lucky: Courts of diversity and Circle of Consciousness.

Interviewer: Because we know Doc is a healer, can you all talk about any healing work that he might have done or that you might have witnessed him do?

Lucky: When I first came to Atlanta, I was walking on the compound, I mean the yard so say, and I saw Doc had a brother whose back was out. He barely could walk. I walked on the yard, and I see the same brother who was complaining on his back, Doc had him on some bleachers like benches. I couldn’t see exactly what he was doing. I’m like, “Man, what’s Doc doing over there? It’s like he’s doing some doctor work.” And I always wondered why they called him Doc, right? I read about him and so forth. But when we got back in the block, man, this guy was walking. I’m like man. He’s like, “Man, I don’t know what Doc did, but he brought me back.” (laughs) “He brought me back.” But later found out Doc was an acupuncturist. I said, “Man, I see why they call him Doc. He’s certified.” I witnessed that. That’s one of the things I witnessed him do. I ain’t get close enough to see exactly what he was doing, but whatever he did, it worked.

Osiris: I think one of the most incredible things I’ve seen in my entire life, and the brothers can attest to this too, so in prison they still had the same drugs they had out in – heroin, a lot of junkies in prison, it’s systemic in prison, it’s a big problem, the heroin thing. But one day me and Doc were walking the track, which is the yard, and the interesting thing about the yard, we would walk counter to everybody else. We would walk so they walked one – and that’s just how Doc was. We’d walked counter to everybody else. But this white boy, he came out to Doc and his hand was purple and blue, and it was terrible. It was like it was about to rot off. He’s like, “What’s wrong?” He’s like, “Doc, man, I got hold of some bad dope.” He unwrapped his hand and it was like the – it had this big nasty gap and hole about the size of an apple. It was spewing puss really bad. Doc told him what to get. And I know this white boy didn’t really care for us, you know what I’m talking about? But his dilemma was this, if you go to the medical and you show them like they going to lock your ass up. You know what I’m saying?

Interviewer: So, he had to humble himself to come and talk to you all.

Osiris: Yeah, humble himself. (laughter) Doc went to work on that man’s hand. Got his toolkit, they came, and he sliced it, went in there, got the gauze, and did his little thing. Gave him some vitamin C. Because in prison, they come up with all kinds – like they got all kinds of remedies for stuff. We’ll die and we have to wait – if we have to depend on the medical, we’d be dead. We’re not a priority. We’re a priority getting us in prison. We’re a priority in locking us down. But whenever you need medical attention, all of us, a lot of people die for something as simple as a toothache or something like that. But Doc had the ability. He was a healer in those regards right there. That was great. And another thing he was good at, like herbs and stuff like that. It may not sound significant, but we didn’t have access to a whole lot of herbs. So, for his scientific mind to be able to come and help us go out into the kitchen, and that’s what you can use instead of using something that’s probably going to poison your body. In prison, they give us ibuprofen for everything. If you break your arm, you got a headache, you’re going to leave there with a bottle of ibuprofen. Having Doc there, if you came down with some kind of illness or something like that, for him to be able to utilize the limited resources that he had to cure us, I think it was really profound. The things that he did, the medical attention that he provided. He was performing – brothers had arthritis and brothers had different ailments, brothers would catch a crook in their neck or something like that, or they have something that’s very debilitating, he would be able to work with that and I thought that was profound. I want to reiterate that. When I saw the junkie that caught that bad infection and Doc healed him, to this day I can just remember vividly because it was the person, a character who was despicable, I’d say, “He’s not one of us, let him go on about his business.” But that was not how Mutulu was. Mutulu was a caring brother. He didn’t see color, race, or creed.

But for him to take his time out, and stop, and go get the limited resources that he had, and work on this man’s hand, slice it, and get the puss out, and use the vitamin C, and all this other stuff that he did, and do that, and the guy actually – I would see the guy passing, because I was like, that ain’t going to work right there. You know. Your hand is rotten. He’s a junkie. He’s just trying to get high. He just got hold of some dope. It probably wasn’t even dope. I don’t know. But I saw that. And another thing, I’ll leave it at this, this is the last thing that I’m going to say, as far as us on a psychological level in terms of a mental level, which was the most assault – like people could come home from the Army and they could be diagnosed with different syndromes and stuff like that. But a lot of us, we were in an Army, and a lot of us had all kinds of psychosis and stuff like that. And that was the beautiful thing of Doc too because he was able to heal us and work with us in that capacity. Because when you’re in an environment where everybody is dying, everybody is distraught. The average sentence in Atlanta was 25 years. We were at a spot where more people died than go home by far. Just being in the environment where everything is so negative, so toxic, and to have this brother come in and him knowing that he’s working on our psyche, he’s working on our minds, and he’s working on our bodies and stuff like that. It was pretty good because I had experienced – one day I walked by Doc and I got this energy from me that was – it was during Black August, I got this energy, like heat energy, like a spiritual energy. He would send down – now the thing about it was he was so tired because he had ran, it was Black August, he was fasting, and we were in a function in the chapel in the Rastafarian room, and so Doc came in and I felt like some kind of glow of light or something like that, some kind of heat, some kind of spiritual – but I didn’t think nothing of it. Another guy came in and he walked by Doc, and he experienced the same sensation too. Days later we were just actually talking and it was just so profound to experience something like that because I’ve never experienced like that in my life though. There were a lot of great things. That was just a few of them though.

Interviewer: Thank you so much, Brother Osiris. Yes, Ras J?

Ras J: Doc had a unique way of making us see our health as our responsibility. Yes, there was a dispensary, but Doc’s point of view was if you depend on your enemy to keep you alive in here, you’re lost before you even start. And in the kitchen we were very conscious of our health. One of the reasons I worked in the kitchen, first the vegetable room, then the bakery, is so we can have access to things that we needed to keep us healthy. And Doc was a huge proponent of exercise, nutrition, acupuncture. I did acupressure and Doc taught me a lot. He taught me a lot about how to manipulate the body and the pressure points. I did a lot of reflexology and we used to put people to sleep out there on the rec yard, on the stone tables? We’d just straight put a dude to sleep. And Doc was – not only was he an advocate, but he was a giver of information. He could have been like I have this knowledge and I can help people, but his thing was teach other people to heal so that we can heal each other and so we can all stay healthy. That’s important. But the most important was a mind frame of resilience and we will find a way to live and live well day-to-day regardless of our circumstances. I think that’s one of the greatest gifts that he gave to us. So many times when you’re incarcerated and people go through bouts of depression, you’re always missing your kids and your family, but oftentimes things would happen that you knew would not happen if you were there, and that really weighed upon your soul and spirit if you’re a father and your kids are in need, if you’re a husband and your wife is going through it. Having a family. I considered Osiris, and Lucky, and , and other brothers who were in our circle as a family, and you can only talk to your real family fifteen minutes in a phone call, or we’re often far from home, so it wasn’t like you were right where your family was, so visits were not as regular as you wanted, so you depended on our inside family. For many of us, for the younger guys, Doc was like a father or a grandfather or uncle, for those of us who were his peers, he was our brother. But he taught us that this is your responsibility inside our family and we are a building community. We’re not only a building community, we’re respecting the other communities around us, whether they’re Hispanic, whether they are from different geographical areas, and as community members, this is how we’re going to create a world that we can live in. Regardless of what the authorities say, regardless of what is happening in the street with our families that we can’t control, we can control the world around us, and we’re going to create an environment that is conducive to a good life. That might sound weird, I say a good life when you’re incarcerated, but Doc was powerful enough to make us understand that concept, and then it’s a concept that we embrace. Many times guys would ask me, “How do you walk around here – you walk around here like you’re happy. How can you be happy to be here?” It’s not a point of being happy to be incarcerated. No one is happy to be incarcerated. But from being around Doc and my other brothers and working to build a family, I really believe that if we succumb to depression and hate and despair, then they won. But if we maintain our humanity, if we love and respect, and care for each other, and we build community, and we protect each other, then we have obtained a level of freedom that sometimes people on the street don’t even possess. And Doc was powerful enough to not only push that concept, but get us to understand it, and believe it, and most of all practice it.

Interviewer: That’s right. Thank you so much. Yeah, I have to tell myself the mantra that joy is a choice oftentimes, especially living in the age of pandemic life. It’s really beautiful to hear these accounts of one, being so resilient and having so much fortitude, and just being resourceful enough to find what you need while you’re incarcerated. That’s mind blowing. Like the inventiveness that it takes to do that. I really would like to know about where you all are now, now that you’re out, now that you have been liberated, what do you see yourself doing now? How will you continue on Doc’s legacy? I know some of you spoke about some things that you are doing, but what’s important to you, what’s the next thing, what’s on your goal list, how will you help or continue to help your people thrive and survive?

Lucky: I want to say something to that, elaborate on that. Like the brothers were saying, I learned a lot from Dr. Akinyele and Dr. Mutulu Shakur, even Ras J, even the Brother Osiris, due to the classes. I’m still currently in the halfway house. I’ve been out for just six months now.

Osiris: Congratulations, man.

Lucky: Yeah, okay. Like the brother was saying, I have utilized the knowledge. He said he wrote – he was taught with the knowledge that Mutulu and the brothers gave him, he wrote his first book, I just wrote my first book called My Daddy Changed the World. It’s about George Floyd – I wrote it for George Floyd’s daughter, Gianna Floyd. It’s like in her words, articulating in her words. But a lot of the things that I said in there is due to the struggle, it’s about the things we need to change. I not only wrote about the problem, I brought the solution that I learned from them brothers. I also started an organization Joining Forces with Kids, JFK, and Joining Forces with Queens, JFQ, for the incarcerated brothers and sisters that have transformed the negative mindset to a positive mindset. I want to reach back and bridge the gap because a lot of them brothers and sisters don’t have a vehicle, they don’t have the resources to get their creativity out there. So that’s one of the organizations I have started. Like the brothers say, learning from brothers like Mutulu Shakur and Dr. Akinyele. Also, one of my main goals because it’s like I’m still tied to the struggle, I want to reach back and get the brothers that have been left behind, and Mutulu Shakur is one of the main brothers who I can’t never forget about. I can’t never forget about the brother because, like the Brother Osiris say, he brought me from a geographical mindset to a global mindset. I want to say this and I don’t know how many locations or the reach that this interview will have, who will listen to it, but I’m going to say this, what I see. I see that a lot of brothers out here got power that can reach back and help Mutulu Shakur because they don’t know the history. A lot of them be hearing about Tupac, a lot of them study Mutulu because of Tupac and so forth. Me, I’ve always been for the struggle. It don’t matter who you is. If Tupac weren’t for the struggle, I wouldn’t listen to him. But I’m for whoever is for the struggle. That’s where my heart lies. I want to say this, my goal is to unite the brothers and sisters out here that holds the power that can bring – we can talk about this all day long, if we don’t reach the right people it will just be another interview. I’m going to say this, you got brothers like – because I was incarcerated with Brother Juelz and I was telling him about Mutulu because he was online with Meek Mill and so forth. Akinyele can be a witness to this. I called Akinyele and telling him that we’re going to start a program just like we did with cultural diversity and so forth. And like Brother Ras said, when he left Coleman too, he started something to another prison where he went to and kept the torch going. Me, I mean it in my heart, that Brother Osiris mean it in his heart, Ras J means it in his heart, Akinyele means it in his heart, because they continue to move about in the struggle. I called Akinyele and said, “Man, we got a program I want to get Meek Mill here, can you reach out and get some brothers on your end?” Because I wanted to bring it to the forefront and get them brothers involved and aware of Mutulu’s plight and that we need some powerful brothers that got a voice to bring it to light. My goal is to get it to them brothers Meek Mill, Jay-Z, and those who have the power. Because just last night – my son raps, he’s a rapper called CJ. He’s got a little fan base down here in Florida. They called me last night, him and I don’t know if you all are familiar with the Brother Kodak Black They FaceTimed me last night. It was very surprising because he asked me about Mutulu Shakur. He said, “What’s up with Mutulu?” And it kind of shocked me because coming from the Brother Kodak Black. I was like, wow, man. I took the opportunity to tell him, I said, “Listen, I admire you for that.” I said, “But Brother, you need to start talking about Mutulu in your raps, in your interviews, and everybody you come in contact with about this brother because this brother is lingering inside the belly of the beast.” And like the Brother Osiris said in the beginning of the interview, man, it’s reality, brother is getting old, we don’t know how long, only God knows that, but reality is when you deteriorate inside an institution, I mean, the odds are against you. Only God can say, but I want to say this and I’m going to end. My goal is to unite brothers and sisters out here with the power. And I feel as though if they hear me or they get this interview, Jay-Z, Meek Mill, Beyonce, even the sister Kim Kardashian, because I know a sister named Topeka K Sam, she out of New York, and the sister is doing a wonderful job in reaching back in these institutions. But I want to say, Brothers, we need to get these brothers involved and get Mutulu in the forefront of every news channel, every magazine, every outlet that we can to bring attention to the brother. Because like I was taught, closed mouth don’t get fed. Like he always taught me, you have to be ready so you won’t have to get ready. We already know what time it is, we need to utilize every resource that we got to get this brother attention and to get it to these brothers and sisters that hold the power.

Interviewer: Thank you so much, Brother Lucky. Yeah, that’s really important. Thank you for dropping those names so we’ll know next time when we have a Mutulu event that we’re going to tag these people. We’re tagging Meek Mill, we’re tagging all of them in our social media so that they know we know that you know, so you need to spread the word. Thank you for that. Ras J, what’s next for you?

Ras J: I’ll speak about that. But on that note, I can tell Lucky that I did a lot of work on the Free Meek Campaign here in Philadelphia when he was incarcerated. I’m definitely willing to reach out to his people and press for him to do more in this battle. He’s a good dude. He’s just being pulled in a lot of directions and, like a lot of young people, they be on the moment. But I think if a real appeal is made to him and it’s laid out properly, he may be not only able to do something, but to influence others. We also have a brother who is formerly incarcerated named Wallo267.

Lucky: Right, Wallo, he’s doing big things. Right. Positive things.

Ras J: He’s definitely doing big things. He’s a friend and we’re in the same circles. He is in everything. If he can be influenced to speak about Doc in interviews, that would be very powerful. Back to the sister’s question about what I’m doing and what my plans are. Being influenced by Doc was profound enough that during my years of incarceration I began to plan for my freedom long before I was actually free. And one of my thought processes was the system of reentry has to be changed. Criminal justice reform needs to be led by those of us who were incarcerated. So a lot of work that I’ve done since I’ve come home have been in the areas of criminal injustice. I don’t even call it criminal justice reform because it’s almost impossible to reform the criminal justice system. I call it the struggle against criminal injustice because that’s what we’re facing. That takes a lot of forms in terms of bail reform. In Philadelphia, we have worked to change bail reform I run The Center for Returning Citizens, which is an organization that I formed years ago to help people transition. I run TCRC Community Healing Center because one of the major things we have to deal with is the trauma that we experience while we were incarcerated. Not just the trauma when we were incarcerated but before we were incarcerated and then you come home to the trauma of trying to reenter the world with limited resources and many times discrimination and outright opposition. Last but not least, once COVID started, and I had COVID back in April of 2020. I was in the hospital for eight days, I was quarantined 21 days. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. When I came out of the COVID protocol, I looked around my community and I saw how COVID was ravaging our community especially in terms of food scarcity. I was blessed with the opportunity to first open a food distribution center which grew into a food pantry. Last month we fed 10,973 people in the city of Philadelphia. We are a food pantry that’s open daily and on Friday we get ten skids of food delivered to our location. I have patterned what we do after the Black Panther food program, Community First, so all the things that we’re doing in stop the violence work, in building community, in food scarcity, in reentry, in the struggle against criminal injustice and mass incarceration, I lay at the feet of Dr. Mutulu Shakur. In my social media, in my videos, I never fail to mention that the genesis of this work started with Mutulu. I think it’s important for brothers across the country who were positively impacted by Doc and who not only their lives were changed, but the lives of their family and community. We’re just three examples of brothers who because of Doc were convinced we’re never going to go back to prison again, we’re never going to work out in the yard, we’re never going to eat commissary food, we’re never going to spend another minute in a visiting room, we’re going to not only get our lives to freedom but assist those with a like mind to move forward. All of that is Dr. Mutulu Shakur and the world needs to know that. We’ll not only participate in this Zoom call, but whatever we can do to promote the idea of Doc’s freedom. Just like there was a Free Angela, Free Huey, there needs to be a Free Mutulu movement that resounds across the entire country so that everybody knows Doc’s name.

Interviewer: Absolutely. Thank you Ras J. You all are amazing. You all are just so dope, and so rich, and so dope, so amazing. Brother Osiris, what are you doing now? What’s next? How will you continue Doc’s legacy?

Osiris: That’s a very deep question. Unlike Ras J – and I’m so proud of him because he’s a staple, he really, really was able to position himself as to be an instrumental vanguard of it. I’m going to get to it, I’m a little loquacious so bear with me. But I have to speak on him because I saw the impression that Doc made in his life. We were so competitive in jockeying for position that I used to get a little in my feelings with J. I was like dang, he looks like a whole damn scientist professor now. (laughs) But that was the atmosphere that Mutulu would create. I’m going to get back, I just had to speak on this because he said a couple of things that were critical and it jarred memory because we’re going back like 30 years of time, if not more. Even the point, Ras J, when you said you were the last to get on the bus, what was so interesting about that was at that particular time, we thought he wasn’t going to get on the bus. So, the comrades that were there and they were transferring him out, we didn’t want to see them go. He was in the kitchen a long time. I’m all over the place. But just to see his transformation, his proliferation, him become a student into a teacher, to watch him speak and do his poetry, and education the people, the brothers and sisters who were in prison, it’s phenomenal. I’m saying it’s phenomenal, I’m saying if you could watch the little league and then watch the league turn into professional ball players, that’s what it was kind of like. It was the most beautiful thing. But J, Ras J really stood out to me. He really did. Because he went from this meek gentleman that was just such a scholar, had such a glow about himself. Even Lucky, I saw his proliferation too and to see him move and navigate his way around as a student of that. I just had to say that because it was something that was in my heart and I wanted to acknowledge that. What I’m doing right now, I started an organization, Sullivan Enterprises. It’s a trucking company and what happens is 99% of my employees, they come out of prison. They wouldn’t get jobs elsewhere and so I really tolerate and I work with them and just try to make them productive young guys, productive citizens so they can espouse themselves back into society. I’m also looking to work with other people, other gentlemen, other sectors of business people to incorporate funds to turn some of our material into movies. I have two films out right now. One of them is Life without Hope that’s dedicated to Mutulu. That’s the first book that I wrote, and that movie was inspired by Mutulu Shakur because I never even thought I could do a movie, much less a book. I have another project out called Summer Madness, which is a movie. I’m also working with young up and coming actors and actresses and stuff like that to do other business ventures in terms of films and stuff like that. We do have Sullivan Productions Films and I still have a publishing company. I’m signing authors and stuff like that as well. I’m working with a lot of talent from there and just trying to get them to hone in their skills. If I could tutor someone, I’m helping tutoring people in those regards as far as the publishing industry because it’s a very big medium that can be very profitable. It also can be very instrumental in us disseminating in what we would like for our children or our culture to know about themselves and also to know how to survive for themselves economically. That’s pretty much – I don’t have a whole lot. What I like about J and some of the other brothers was to get back into the grassroots of – and that’s what I’m doing. I’m just using a different method, a different sector. But I give a lot of accolades to a lot of the brothers who were able to solely focus more so on that. I’m gearing all my resources toward the same thing. It’s just everybody has a vision and they incorporate their vision the way they see their vision play out. Some are more hands on than others, some dreams are a little bit more palpable or less limited than others, but we all have the same goal, same objective, same priority, same passion, same love, same drive. In this particular instance right here my goal, my objective is – and I’m glad that they can segue into that because I don’t want us to lose a factor, I don’t want this to be lip service, I’ve done countless interviews, we want Mutulu home. We want Mutulu Shakur home.

Interviewer: Yes.

Ras J: Yes. Most definitely.

Osiris: I’m tired of talking. We need him home. Lucky said something about contacting those people, the celebrities, or whatever we have, but we need to get a symposium, or we need to get intelligentsia, we need to get something together where we can do something active to start to get this brother home and get him some attention. And maybe we have to do events like this more. But it’s a travesty to have him languish in prison when everybody else has been forgiven or they’ve done their time. And the most important thing that didn’t come up that Mutulu taught us that we didn’t utilize and we’re supposed to be the most civilized world – the civilized nation in the world, but we don’t utilize it, and that was when Africa used the truth of reconciliation and they came and talked about all the bloodshed and both sides came and admitted what they did. And our brothers in the 70s and the 60s who were ambushed, who were segregated to false charges, who were killed in cold blood, Mutulu’s crime was a crime of response. You know what I’m saying? There was two sides to that. I just feel as though that has never been fully addressed neither because people look at a situation but they don’t look at the situation that gave birth to that situation. At that certain time, they were under siege, they were being slaughtered, and they had no choice but to form their own protections. They had no choice but to do that. I think that the masses and the public needs to know about that in order to try and get him out. I want to also focus on that. But yes, those are the things I have, Sullivan Enterprises, Sullivan Productions, Sullivan Books, that’s what I’m working on. I feel this tiny talking about it because my mentor is the one that gave birth to that and so he should get those accolades. So I don’t even feel right a lot of times talking about achievements and stuff like that when the brother, the people, our ancestors (inaudible). In my particular case, I’m going to be biased. Mutulu.

Interviewer: Yeah, I was just going to wrap up and say thank you to all of you. Thank you so much for your input. I’m looking forward to having this interview transcribed and getting it out there. And the work will continue. In my hearts of hearts I know we’re going to get Baba (Mutulu) free, we’re going to get Doc free.